Dear Catholic

Hello Reader, This Blog is to help Catholics compare thier beliefs with God's Word. Simply read the articles and ask yourself whether or not you understand the differences? Does it matter? Yes - If you want to go to Heaven, it does! Before you just check me off as a "Catholic Basher," please take the time to read for yourself and compare! You'll find that they use the Catechism and/or "traditions" as their source over God's Word. All comments are welcomed. Gospel Light Ministries

Tuesday, December 13, 2005

Article #31 - A different Jesus / A Different Gospel?

A different Jesus / A Different Gospel?

Paul wrote this in 2 Corinthians 11:3,4: "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preached another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him." What did Paul mean by a different Jesus or a different Gospel? For that matter, how is your Jesus and the Gospel that you believe in? The Bible tells us that there is only one Jesus and He has the only Gospel that saves. Yet we see many religious systems, often times with the members not really too concerned about it. They may simply say, "I'm happy for you," but staying this religion or that religion in which they practice. Paul stated clearly that, "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." (Galatians 1:8) Matthew agrees with this Gospel idea in Matthew 7:13,14, where he says, "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

The whole point is to say that there are many ways in which one may believe. However, there is only one way to believe correctly as to gain an eternity in Heaven. Over and over again, the Bible is clear about how one gets to Heaven by simply telling us, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) Jesus told the crowd that inquired about what they should do, that "... This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." (John 6:29) Many of these denominations make the claim to be the "One True Church," yet we see differently when comparing these religions with God's holy Bible. Sadly, their situation is similar to those that John mentioned in 1 John 1:6 when he said, "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth."

"Where are they wrong?"- might be your first impressions, especially if you've never seen a problem before about these religions. Or perhaps you feel that Aunt Betty is going to Heaven, and she's been a lifetime member of this particular denomination all of her life. To this I would simply ask you if she has ever sinned in her life, and just how does she plan to have her sinned dealt with? When was she born again? If by some possibility your answers include sacramental confession, baptism, and priestly confessions, then I doubt that she knows the Biblical gospel of how Jesus took the sins of the world upon Himself to cleanse us at Calvary nearly 2000 years ago.Aunt Betty, like most people of this denomination, probably thinks that she will gain her salvation if she does enough good works, goes to daily mass, and possibly says some rosaries and thinks that it would be helpful to get some indulgences to obtain her salvation. These are just a few of the many ways in which she was taught that would help her merit Heaven, but the Bible tells us differently. The Bible tells us that Jesus took care of our sins in Isaiah 53:5 - " he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed," and that it was a one time sacrifice, paying for our sins totally, completely.

But this is the problem. If you were to ask Aunt Betty if she believed in the finished work of Christ, she undoubtingly would say that she certainly does. But why, then, is she partaking in so many practices that shows us differently? Much of the practices in which she is so religiously captivated with, already mentioned above, aren't Biblical. Such things as transubstantiation (which is another false Christ) aren't of God, nor is the practice of praying to Mary. The answer is that they simply have a different Jesus. If this denomination knew the Biblical Jesus, its members wouldn't be praying to Mary for anything as Hebrews 4:16 tells us, "Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." Jesus is there for her, as well, as all of us. What He did is a gift acquired by faith alone, just as the Bible tells us, "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." (Romans 3:28) To the street person, because Aunt Betty is so nice and religious, it appears that she is Heaven bound, but to the true Christian this niceness means very little and she still is in need of Salvation because of God's Word - "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 6:23)

In closing, Gospel Light Ministries encourages you readers to examine yourselves and your faith. What are you trusting to get into Heaven? Are you following the real Jesus and the real Gospel? If you are trusting anything but the finished work done at Calvary, you have a different Jesus.

29 Comments:

  • At 12:57 PM, Blogger Matthew said…

    Thank you for introducing me to your blog, but I still know the Catholic Church is the truth. It is God's Church founded on St. Peter and preserved through God's traditions. If you don't think so, why? Give me one sentence that sums up your position against the Church.

     
  • At 7:44 PM, Blogger Ron Kempen said…

    Your Church teaches about that Jesus died to save us, yet it then teaches that we are justified a Baptism, rejustified at confession (repeatedly - often)
    and then (just in case) given the last rites, and as a final purification, one undergoes purgatory. So which is it, we are saved through the shed blood of Jesus Christ at Calvary or by your sacraments? They are two separate Gospels!

     
  • At 9:32 AM, Blogger Matthew said…

    Jesus Christ died so that me MIGHT go to Heaven. We are saved only be grace. This grace is defined as the freely given gift of God's perfect love and friendship. We obtain grace through the Sacraments, but all of these sacraments exist because of Jesus Christ's Sacrifice on the Cross. Without His Death and Resurrection nothing else would be possible.

    These are not two separate Gospels. They are one and the same interwoved. Look at this verse:

    "Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:21; cf. Acts 2:38, 22:16, Rom. 6:3–4, Col. 2:11–12).

     
  • At 6:39 PM, Blogger Ron Kempen said…

    Moneybags and Jordan - 1)-what did Jesus finish by His death on the cross? He said He was finished,what was that?
    And
    2 - HAve you ever read Romans 11:6? Romans 9:31-32 and Romans 10:2-4?
    3 - Baptism? - What about Acts 10:47 (Already were saved Before being baptized)or the thief who died when Jesus was crucified? (Jesus didn't call a time out for His baptism)
    even your quote shows that it was through the resurrection of Jesus and the typology picture of Noah's Ark - the water didn't save anyone
    4 Ephesians 2:8+9 - tells us that "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Yet you have to do a sacrament to get grace? How does that agree with Scripture?

     
  • At 7:26 AM, Blogger Matthew said…

    Hi, Ron. I came here to answer your questions, but I see that Jordan has already answered them. I completely agree with his answers and look forward to your response.

     
  • At 9:16 AM, Blogger Ron Kempen said…

    To Jordan and Moneybags:
    You said 1 - "He did not personally and completely take the punishment for everyones sin because otherwise he would be burning in Hell as wes speak."

    Well He did for whosoever believes in what He did (John 3:16) Haven't you seen the verse about the great exchange? It is 2 Corinthians 5:21 - For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    then you said: "Now, when we commit a sin, instead of God punishing us harshly, he can look at the sacrifice of his Son, and show compassion and mercy."

    No that sounds so nice but that isn't what God's word tells us;
    John 3:36-He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
    It's another either /or situation, no middle ground.

    2 - Paul tells us that "..hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; .... For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
    Isn't this the same thing Catholics are trying to say and do?

    3 Acts 10:47 says "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?"
    If they have the Holy Spirit then they're saved already

    Baptism of desire? That's hogwash!
    Admit it - It shows another example of one being saved by faith without works! And it matters not what kind of works for as Romans 11:6 says "
    Rom 11:6
    6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. "
    If one can be saved by works then tell me how many whatevers (Masses,hard labour, good deeds etc., etc., ) do we need to remove one sin? And why didn't Jesus's work at Calvary do it? Hebrews 1:3 says "that after having purged us of sin..."
    What are believers to do about these verses? Throw them out? Not what I'm going to do!

     
  • At 6:28 AM, Blogger Ron Kempen said…

    Carolsel You asked me why I didn't accept the term "Baptism of desire?" As I've stated "your Magestirium is not my interpretor of Scriptures."
    2 - Baptism does not save anyone - it is a means of identifying oneself as a believer - The thief expressed desire to go to Heaven and I'm sure he wasn't wishing that he could be baptized. No sense putting words in his mouth.
    3 - we are saved by grace not works lest one boasts - what is it about Eph. 2:8+9 that needs translating? We are saved by faith in what Jesus did on the cross not by what sort of action we do to merit Salvation!!!
    4 - The Catholic needs to trust
    God when they study Scriptures not what their Magestirium says it says, for we've been warned that the deception would be tremendous in the latter times.

     
  • At 5:06 PM, Blogger Michael said…

    Ron in rebuttal of your comments to CarolSel, you said that you didn't have to listen to our magistirium and that you can interpret your own scriptures. Below I have included the Passages stated by Christ Himself why you can't interpret the scriptures yourself. And also why works are needed for salvation and not just faith or grace, but all three of them together.

    The process of recognizing the written word of God involved a human process of discernment by the Magisterium ( teaching authority ) of the Catholic Church over many centuries of time. Quoting from one of the 16 documents of Vatican 11, Dei Verbum* ( Word of God ) "...but the task of authentically interpreting the Word of God, whether written or handed down, has been entrusted exclusively to the living teaching office of the church, whose authority is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ. This teaching office is not above the word of God but serves it, teaching only what has been handed on... with the help of the Holy Spirit; it draws from this one deposit of faith everything it presents for belief as divinely revealed."

    Like the Holy Bible, the National Electrical Code ( NEC )** is not a self-interpreting book. It is the "authority having jurisdiction" that shall be permitted to render interpretations of this code. This "authority having jurisdiction" is defined in the NEC. If every person or each individual electrician was an authority unto himself, interpreting the NEC, we would have chaos in the electrical industry, and in the country. It would be like "playing with fire." The Bible also needs an "authority having jurisdiction" to interpret it. And it has one – the Catholic Church. Unlike the Catholic Church, Protestant Churches do not have the guarantee of the Holy Spirit, ( authority ) to keep them from falling into error as a body, in matters of faith and morals. Therefore, we have well over 20,000 Protestant denominations with a wide variety of doctrines, each claiming to be correct ( or more correct ) than the other on interpreting the Bible. For example, Martin Luther, John Calvin, and other early Protestant reformers condemned contraception. In 1930, at the Lambeth Conference, the Anglican Bishops of the Church of England decided to no longer consider contraception sinful, leaving the matter up to individual consciences. This has lead to confusion and division, and again, this is like "playing with fire." Soon thereafter, most Protestant denominations followed the Anglican Bishops and allowed contraception. The Protestant reformation ( deformation ) was a turning away from the unity and fullness of the truth in the One True Catholic Church. It was a turn towards chaos, cascading divisions, a shorter Bible, and an avalanche of lesser "truths" in many Protestant churches. Just recently ( Nov. 2003 ), a major Protestant church ordained an openly homosexual bishop. This may result in yet another cascading division, another "truth". Truth is a person, Jesus Christ. "...I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me..." ( John 14:6 ). When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life..." ( John 8:12 ). Once known, rejecting Catholic Church authority and also the "truth" and "the light of life" has grave consequences for any individual or society. We now have a culture of death, lack of harmony and beauty, and growing moral chaos and moral backsliding ( contraception, abortion ) in the United States. Truth then is a matter of life and death; choose life. "...For God formed man to be imperishable; the image of his own nature he made him. But by the envy of the devil, death entered the world, and they who are in his possession experience it..." ( Wisdom 2:23-24 ).

    It is readily acknowledged that in the 16th century, individual persons within the Catholic Church needed to reform themselves on matters concerning their own personal morals. ( Of course, to varying degrees, this will always be true in every century. ) However, as a universal body in matters of truth in faith and morals, the Catholic Church has the guarantee of the Holy Spirit, the soul of the Church, to keep it from falling into error. Truth is immutable - does not change – our understanding of truth changes. "...Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings..." ( Hebrews 13:8-9 ). What the Protestant reformers ( deformers ) did was to promote individual interpretation and understanding of the Truth as revealed in the Holy Bible without having the guarantee of the Holy Spirit of God to keep them ( as individuals and church communions ) from falling into error. It was not a Holy Spirit that guided Protestantism on this historical and spiritual "Wrong Way" turn into cascading divisions, lack of harmony and beauty, protracted dissension, and Legions of "truths." There is an echo here of the fall of man in Genesis 3:4-6 "...You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it..." This is the primordial lie, the quintessential lie. You in your pride and envy, and on your own subjective authority decide - what is truth? The lie in effect is still the same as in Genesis 3, "...you will be like God..." In part then, the fall of man in Genesis 3 is about the idea of "sacred space". Some areas are proper to man and some areas are proper to God. Man, for example, cooperates with God in procreating new life, but man is not the arbitrator of life. Couples should be open to the possibility of new life within marriage. In part, the fall of man in Genesis 3 is about disobedience; a violation of "sacred space." The individual sin and corruption within the Catholic Church that initiated Protestantism occurred centuries ago and this corruption and sins ( real or imagined ) has in large measure been corrected. Again though, church doctrine ( Catholic Church Truth ) is immutable. Again, readily acknowledging that in every century there will always be individual sin and scandal within the Church – Why continue with this very, very long protracted protest now, by not forgiving the sins of other persons who lived and died centuries ago? Why "play with fire" by continuing to protest and by risking your own individual salvation now? The protracted Protestant Church protest of someone else’s sin( s ) of long ago will not be an acceptable excuse for you as an individual before God, on your own individual judgment day, for you to practice contraception, abortion, or some other sinful lifestyle now. Also, deliberately "choosing not to know" the truth ( 1 Timothy 3:15 ) for some selfish matter of convenience of lifestyle will not be an acceptable excuse for you when you stand before God on your own individual judgment day. The Catholic Church is the Bride of Christ ( Apocalypse 19, 20, 21 ), ( Ephesians 5 ), and you as an individual, will have to stand before her Bridegroom ( Christ ) and explain why you rejected/protested His Bride. You will have to explain to the Bridegroom why The Bride ( The Church ), although good enough for Him, is not good enough for you. Are you "playing with fire", risking your salvation, by rejecting Catholic Church authority? Are you proud, using terms like faith alone, personal choice, progressive, and modern? Are your protracted protestations and prideful words all just a masquerade for your own convenient lifestyle; a sinful lifestyle which is not pleasing to God?

    Here is the text on works, grace, and faith.

    ( Romans 2:5-16 NIV ) "...5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of 6 God, will give to each person according to what he has done. 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger..." "...13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 ( Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them. ) 16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares..."

    "The word of cheap grace has been the ruin of more Christians than any commandment of works."* ( Dietrich Bonhoeffer ) During World War II, Lutheran churchman Dietrich Bonhoeffer challenged Hitler publicly. He was a brave witness against idolatry; against cheap grace. He was hanged by the Nazi SS Black Guards on April 9th 1945 at age 39.

    "Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession, absolution without personal confession. Cheap grace is grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate."* ( Dietrich Bonhoeffer )

    Mt. 10:38-39 And he who does not take up his cross and follow me, is not worthy of me. ( Mt. 16:24-25; 19:29; Mk. 8:34-35; Lk.9:23-24; 14:26; Dt.33:9 ) 39 he that finds his life, shall lose it: and he that shall lose his life for me, shall find it. ( Lk.17:33; Jn.12:25 )

    Some Evangelicals have likened Catholic justification to Evangelical justification and sanctification rolled up into one A Catholic would respond that justification is not complete without complete sanctification: “Justification entails the sanctification of (man’s) whole being) (CCC 1995).

    Scripture clearly teaches that “graced” works are involved in the “by” of justification. James 2:26 is the most obvious passage: “…. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.”

    Is it any wonder that some of the Reformers attempted to put James into an “appendix” to the Bible rather than in its historically accepted place?

    Most important: this is also the gospel of Jesus. His ideal was that of a life of (graced) good works flowing from a vibrant inner faith. See Mt 7:24-27, the two sons (Mt 21:28-32), the Good Samaritan (Lk 10:25-37), the talents (Mt 25:14-30), the sheep and the goats (Mt 25:31-46) and other texts to teach a unity of faith and works for salvation. How much more explicit could Jesus have been in the following: “Not everyone who says to me ‘Lord, Lord’, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who “does the will of my Father in heaven” (Mt 7:21)..

    “Are you saved?” asks the fundamentalist. “I am redeemed”, answers the Catholic,. “and like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling”(Phil 2:12) – with a firm hope but not with a false assurance – and I do all this as the Church has taught, unchanged , from the time of Christ”.

     
  • At 10:31 AM, Blogger Ron Kempen said…

    St Micheal,
    You write very well and are very convincing, but only to the ones that don't know Scriptures for themselves. However I have some questions for you. What and how many "works" is a person to do to have absolution for their sins? Where do you get that the Catholic has the power to be the authority, especially over God's word and that you aren't just another "division" from Christ. As for works, Did you read my works article ? (down the page on my blog) Heck I'll just give you my web site address:
    www.freewebs.com/Gospellightmin/

    Your story is very good as well, but Catholics are very good at that when dealing with others, however that too is misleading because I see that the word of God CAN be trusted, as John 8:31,32 tells us as well as 1 Peter 2:2. I doubt that will be convinced as I am about the errors of Catholicism, unless you read my articles, or at least consider them as truth, but I don't think that you'd have "the ear to hear," either. Thanks for writing but no thank you for as my articles explain, Catholicism has to many flaws to be Christ's church.

     
  • At 11:48 AM, Blogger Michael said…

    Hey Ron,

    Thank you for replying so fast. I will answer each of your questions one at a time. First I will start from the bottom and work my way up. You asked me how I knew that my church isn't just some division from the real church that Christ founded... Well, I know because scripture has told me how to tell the real church from a fake church.

    If you haven't heard how to tell this, then I will explain to you, so maybe your eyes will be opened. No offense or anything but you remind me of Pharoh with Moses, each time that Moses showed the Pharoh proof of the truth of God, Pharoh hardened his heart.

    Here is the 4 marks of the Church that Christ founded:

    If we wish to locate the Church founded by Jesus, we need to locate the one that has the four chief marks or qualities of his Church. The Church we seek must be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.

    The Church Is One (Rom. 12:5, 1 Cor. 10:17, 12:13, CCC 813–822)
    Jesus established only one Church, not a collection of differing churches (Lutheran, Baptist, Anglican, and so on). The Bible says the Church is the bride of Christ (Eph. 5:23–32). Jesus can have but one spouse, and his spouse is the Catholic Church.

    His Church also teaches just one set of doctrines, which must be the same as those taught by the apostles (Jude 3). This is the unity of belief to which Scripture calls us (Phil. 1:27, 2:2).

    Although some Catholics dissent from officially-taught doctrines, the Church’s official teachers—the pope and the bishops united with him—have never changed any doctrine. Over the centuries, as doctrines are examined more fully, the Church comes to understand them more deeply (John 16:12–13), but it never understands them to mean the opposite of what they once meant.

    The Church Is Holy (Eph. 5:25–27, Rev. 19:7–8, CCC 823–829)
    By his grace Jesus makes the Church holy, just as he is holy. This doesn’t mean that each member is always holy. Jesus said there would be both good and bad members in the Church (John 6:70), and not all the members would go to heaven (Matt. 7:21–23).

    But the Church itself is holy because it is the source of holiness and is the guardian of the special means of grace Jesus established, the sacraments (cf. Eph. 5:26).

    The Church Is Catholic (Matt. 28:19–20, Rev. 5:9–10, CCC 830–856) Jesus’ Church is called catholic ("universal" in Greek) because it is his gift to all people. He told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of "all nations" (Matt. 28:19–20).

    For 2,000 years the Catholic Church has carried out this mission, preaching the good news that Christ died for all men and that he wants all of us to be members of his universal family (Gal. 3:28).

    Nowadays the Catholic Church is found in every country of the world and is still sending out missionaries to "make disciples of all nations" (Matt. 28:19).

    The Church Jesus established was known by its most common title, "the Catholic Church," at least as early as the year 107, when Ignatius of Antioch used that title to describe the one Church Jesus founded. The title apparently was old in Ignatius’s time, which means it probably went all the way back to the time of the apostles.

    The Church Is Apostolic (Eph. 2:19–20, CCC 857–865)
    The Church Jesus founded is apostolic because he appointed the apostles to be the first leaders of the Church, and their successors were to be its future leaders. The apostles were the first bishops, and, since the first century, there has been an unbroken line of Catholic bishops faithfully handing on what the apostles taught the first Christians in Scripture and oral Tradition (2 Tim. 2:2).

    These beliefs include the bodily Resurrection of Jesus, the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, the sacrificial nature of the Mass, the forgiveness of sins through a priest, baptismal regeneration, the existence of purgatory, Mary’s special role, and much more —even the doctrine of apostolic succession itself.

    Early Christian writings prove the first Christians were thoroughly Catholic in belief and practice and looked to the successors of the apostles as their leaders. What these first Christians believed is still believed by the Catholic Church. No other Church can make that claim.

    The Bible, sacred Tradition, and the writings of the earliest Christians testify that the Church teaches with Jesus’ authority. In this age of countless competing religions, each clamoring for attention, one voice rises above the din: the Catholic Church, which the Bible calls "the pillar and foundation of truth" (1 Tim. 3:15).

    Jesus assured the apostles and their successors, the popes and the bishops, "He who listens to you listens to me, and he who rejects you rejects me" (Luke 10:16). Jesus promised to guide his Church into all truth (John 16:12–13). We can have confidence that his Church teaches only the truth.

    Jesus chose the apostles to be the earthly leaders of the Church. He gave them his own authority to teach and to govern—not as dictators, but as loving pastors and fathers. That is why Catholics call their spiritual leaders "father." In doing so we follow Paul’s example: "I became your father in Jesus Christ through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:15).

    Christ did establish a church when he left and it is the Catholic church. Does your church hold these 4 marks? Has your church endured over 2000 years?

    I know that the Catholic Church is the spouse of Christ b/c he himself tells us so.

     
  • At 12:23 PM, Blogger Ron Kempen said…

    Now I know how you write so good - its called cut and paste from Catholic Answers - And I just wrote a couple of articles responding to your answer. However I just pasted it on this: CatholicChurchApologetics@groups.msn.com When you get there click on General, then on Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth -- My articles are in Message #4 let me know if you find it - ENJOY

     
  • At 12:31 PM, Blogger Michael said…

    Ok, I am going to post on the next question you asked me: "What and how many "works" is a person to do to have absolution for their sins?"

    WHAT part do good works play in our salvation? Many Christians, especially Evangelicals, say they play no part, but the Catholic Church teaches that they do have a role. At the same time the Church warns against the idea that we "earn" our salvation through good works. Both errors can be avoided by paying close attention to Scripture.

    You may have misunderstood what I was saying, its not how many works we can do to get to heaven, its through good works, grace, and faith that we can make it to heaven, but going to heaven isn't a guarantee.

    Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 7:21).

    "One came up to him, saying, `Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?' And Jesus replied 'If you would enter life, keep the commandments'" (Matt. 19:16-17).

    "But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by perseverance in good works seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury" (Rom. 2:2-8).

    "You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love" (Gal. 5:4-6).

    "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God--not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:8-10).

    "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Phil. 2:12-13).

    "What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, `Go in peace, be warmed and filled,' without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. But some one will say, `You have faith and I have works.' Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, `Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness'; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" (Jas. 2:14-24).

    I hope this helps to answer your question. Now I tried to go to your site and view your page, but it gives me a page error. I will see if I can go back on the blog and read it myself again.

     
  • At 12:34 PM, Blogger Michael said…

    Yes I did get the 4 marks from Catholic.com, but I didn't copy everything from my last few entries. I will see about your MSN group.

     
  • At 3:07 PM, Blogger Ron Kempen said…

    St. Micheal
    What are we to have faith in?
    What takes away sins?

     
  • At 8:36 PM, Blogger Matthew said…

    St. Michael, you have said it beautifully.

    Ron,

    Our faith is built on Christ. We are saved only through grace - God's free given love and friendship. However, grace is based on both faith and works. Faith is the cornerstone. Without faith we can do nothing else. But faith isn't enough. If you live our whole life without loving our neighbor or seeking Christ in the Sacraments, we are nothing.

    As St. James said, "Faith without works is dead."

     
  • At 8:12 AM, Blogger Ron Kempen said…

    Moneybags, here's the problem
    first you claim "Our faith is built on Christ" but then you and the rest of the Catholics claim -
    "But faith isn't enough. If you live our whole life without loving our neighbor or seeking Christ in the Sacraments," Now look at what the Bible says -
    JESUS DIED FOR US! He didn't save us by grace AND then give us a sacramental system so that we thwen could merit one's salvation! And by that means you could or I should say nullify the whole Scriptural meaning of grace!!!

     
  • At 2:21 PM, Blogger Michael said…

    Ron,

    Christ did die for us, you are right with that. If through the horrible way that he died, we are "saved". Then why did Christ say "Pick up your cross and follow me"? If we were already saved, then wouldn;t that mean that we should have a straight ticket to heaven and not have to suffer here on earth? Let me put it to you another way.

    ZSome protestants will try to tell you that Christ underwent our punishment--He did not! If that were so, then Christ would have had to be sent to hell for all eternity, for this is what we truly deserve (see Rev. 20:13-14). Christ suffered for us, no question, but He did so in order to earn for us God's forgiveness, not so that we wouldn't have to suffer or be punished temporarily. In other words, Jesus helped us avoid hell not by undergoing the punishment Himself, but by offering Himself to God in order to appease God's wrath and prevent His justice from being executed (see Isa. 53:10-12; Heb. 2:17). Just as lambs and goats were slain in the Old Testament in order to appease the wrath of God, so Christ was slain and slaughtered to appease God's wrath, but with Christ it was once and for all.

    However, we are talking here about possible, or potential, forgiveness, not necessarily actual forgiveness. The Church does not teach that because of what Christ did for us, all sins will be forgiven in the sense that all people will be saved in the end; rather, the truth is that all sins can be forgiven because of Christ's ultimate act of love. What does the "can" depend on? It depends on us, our willingness to repent, receive forgiveness, and obey Christ (see Hebrews 3:12-15; Rom. 11:21-23). So that the graces of Calvary can be applied to all believers, and not just to those who were around the Cross that first Good Friday, our Lord instituted the Holy Mass. Now all who attend Mass can benefit from Christ's wonderful Sacrifice and receive His Body and Blood.

    We also need that sanctifying grace from God to help us work out our salvation.

    And Ron, in answer to the question you asked me directly about who can forgive sins...? I have already answered that and gave you the biblical verses. But to let you hear it again... When Christ breathed on the apostles and said "I give you (you meaning the apostles and their successors) the power to forgive sins, what ever you loose on earth, shall be loosed in heaven, and whatever you bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven"

    Jesus didn't say, " Every Tom, Dick, and harry may ask their forgiveness from me and I will forgive them, and anyone can be preachers or my true word" Through the laying of the hands that a Priests recieves from his Bishop during his ordination, he recieves all those powers that the Apostles first recieved from Christ even though it has been 2000 years. There is no time with God, and those powers of God that a TRUE Priest recieves are one and the same with the very Church that Jesus Christ himself started... One Holy, Catholic, Apostolic, Church, the 4 marks that you can find in the scriptures that define the True church of Christ.

    Peace be too you!

     
  • At 2:28 PM, Blogger Ron Kempen said…

    There is that one commmon err by St. Micheal and Moneybags as well as most Catholics - they feel like THE CATHOLIC CHURCH was THE church started by Christ and that they're gauranteed by the Holy Spirit to be truthful, as in infallible! This is not the case as one only needs to compare what exactly does the Bible say as oppose to whatever they try to tell you it says. Over and over the Bible shows the importance of knowing it such as Matt. 22:29 where Jesus says "you are mistaken, not knowing Scripture."
    The same goes for us today, with all of the predicted ( by the Bible) deceptions out their, the need is even more important to not look at "others," but to look into the Bible to know what wwould Jesus have you do? Then you will know what and where to place your faith!!!

     
  • At 2:44 PM, Blogger Ron Kempen said…

    Hey St. Micheal, have you read my article #5 dealing with your quoted, so-called proof verse? Here it is-

    1) - John 20:23 - "If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." Based upon this statement, along with the "binding and loosing" given in Matthew 18, we see the misconception among those who claim their priest or pastor is able to forgive those that come to him. However, using the complete Bible to let Scripture interpret itself, we find that only God can forgive sins, as even the Pharisees knew this (Mark 2:7). And our sins are or aren't forgiven based upon John 3:36 - "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." So the disciples, having spent three years learning from Jesus, they knew His ways, could now preach and teach to others. As other people heard and believed, they were saved (Ephesians 1:13,14). The disciples could tell if anyone was or wasn't a follower based upon what that individual beliefs were by what they did and said, "... for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. ..... For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned" (Matthew 12:34-37). Thus, the disciples could inform others of whether or not their sins were forgiven based upon whether or not they were believers. One more point here to realize God is in control, not man. For man to have the power to forgive sins, then God would be under man's control

     
  • At 2:56 PM, Blogger Ron Kempen said…

    Also you are wrong about what Jesus did at Calvary
    2 Corinthians 5:21 he took our (whosoever believes) sins and gives us His righteousness!
    Its about grace, not works least you boast (Eph.2:8,9)It is a gift (Romans 6:23) For God saves the ungodly, (Romans 4:4-6) without works! Works do show that one is a believer, but does not address the sin issue - that is the finished work done to save anyone who believes in what Jesus accomplished 2000 years ago!

     
  • At 3:55 PM, Blogger Matthew said…

    Ron,

    Without Jesus's death on the Cross we wouldn't have the Sacraments. They are there for us. It is Jesus Christ that is present in the Sacraments as we believe the priest is in persona Christi. This means that it is Christ speaking the Baptism words, or the consecration, or the prayer of absolution.

    Why would Jesus ever give us these Sacraments if they weren't needed? Where does Jesus say, "You must only have faith"?

    And, as John Henry Neumann said, "To know history is to be Catholic." The Catholic Church was founded on St. Peter, the first Pope and the Lord has continued to guide it. All of this from Matthew 16:18

     
  • At 8:59 AM, Blogger Ron Kempen said…

    Moneybags, you said-
    "Without Jesus's death on the Cross we wouldn't have the Sacraments." They are there for us. It is Jesus Christ that is present in the Sacraments as we believe the priest is in persona Christi. This means that it is Christ speaking the Baptism words, or the consecration, or the prayer of absolution."

    And if you'd noticed who told you this belief? the Catholic Church, the same ones who tell you what to do, to say and what you should or shouldn't do! They control the individual's very thinking. Yet they just feed you enough truth (mixed with enough poison) to hook you (like all it's members) You know how little poison destroys a lot of good material. They tell you that you can't understand Scripture without them too. Have you ever checked out for yourself what is in Scriptures? The very Gospel of Grace is in there and it has the power to save. God did NOT give you a bunch of Sacraments by which you could merit yourself graces. Meriting grace is itself an oxymoron and goes against grace. What Jesus accomplished with His deAth is salvation (Isaiah 53:5 BY his stripes we are healed) for whosoever believes (John 6:28,29 and 3:16) Look up these verses PLEASE look them up. The Bible tells us He gave two sacraments and neither one saves, (but they are the corner stone by which Roman Catholicism would tell you that you were to trust in.)
    1 the communion - so as to have us remember what He did the next day (Died for us) not the "real presence" communion by which you think you are eating your way to Heaven. (again you would need a priest if that was truth!) Don't you see that the Devil has you focused on communion instead of what really saves - the shed body and blood of Jesus on the next day. Jesus Himself says that it isn't what goes into a man's stomach that matters because that just goes out as waste - (Matthew 15:11 and 17)

    You further said "Why would Jesus ever give us these Sacraments if they weren't needed?"

    He didn't give us these sacraments. The other one "Baptism" does not save either - it identifys yourself as stating that you are a believer of what Jesus did to save you AT CALVARY. Babys can't comprehend anything, but once a child gets old enough and has been brought up to believe, they then can profess this desire to follow Christ, THEN they get Baptized to identify themslves.

    Finally you say " Where does Jesus say, "You must only have faith"?"
    Try reading Romans (4:4,5+6) then Romans 11:6 and Romans 9:31-32 and 10:2+3. IT is a gift (Romans 6:23) you can't buy a gift! You either accept it by faith or you choose to deny it! I'v got it illustrated at the Home page of my web - www.freewebs/gospellightmin/
    check it out - maybe then you'll begin to understand the Gospel that saves is not preached by Catholicism.

     
  • At 7:16 PM, Blogger Michael said…

    Money bags... a word of Advice here.... I was once upset b/c I showed a 1st class relic to a protestant and they practically spit on it. I was so enraged, I wanted to throttle that person; so I went and talked to my priest and he said "Do not throw pearls to the swine". And I came to realize that, even after you show a person the truth, and they still can't open their blind eyes, their deaf ears, or their heardened heart... Don't waste you time arguing anymore with people like that, b/c all they are going to do is either make you really upset or, drag you down to their miserable level.

    Ron, no offense or anything... but you have blinders on your eyes, no matter what we show you, you are determined not to see it. I was reading over your response to moneybags last night, and all the scriptures taht you wrote were taken way out of context and some of them didn;t even make sense with the answer you were giving her. I was too tired to write you a proper rebuttal, As for now, I am going to pull out of this blog, untill you (Ron) have something intelligible to say and can actually use verses the way they were supposed to be used, with all the language and not three words taken and then twisted purposly to confuse.

    God Bless,

    Michael

     
  • At 8:23 AM, Blogger Ron Kempen said…

    To you St Micheal. Rather then to launch out in anger over your misguided reply, I must remind myself that we can only throw out seeds to these unbelievers. It is God that saves, not us. They can't understand yet because of 1 Corinthians 2:10-16, (especially verse 14) which says "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned," as well as what 1 Corinthians 1:17,18,21,23,25-30 tells us - "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.... For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men...For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption."

    Peace,
    Ron

     
  • At 7:22 AM, Blogger Michael said…

    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

     
  • At 7:31 AM, Blogger Ron Kempen said…

    godisgood, you say -

    "Hi, Ron i sense in you someone who wants to learn more, someone with good intentions, who has been mislead,"
    Yes I want to learn things but as far as this Catholic stuff it is you that needs to see the truth, I've already learnt these facts.

    "To all your opposition to the Catholic Church is say Consider (Matthew 16:19):
    "Simon Peter answered: 'you are the Messiah, the son of the living God.'"
    Look at it what is Peter declaring must not be overlooked

    "Then Jesus said: 'blessed are you simon son of jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my father in heaven. And i say to you: you are peter, the Rock;
    No He does not declare Peter as the Rock, the correct translation is a little stone for He cannot go against His own word - 1 corinthians 10:4 - says that Jesus is the Rock

    "and on this rock"
    What Peter had just declared - that Jesus is the Messiah

    "i" Jesus not Peter

    "will build my church,"
    Who's Church? Jesus's not Peter's

    "and the powers of death shall never conquer it. I will give you the Keys"
    The keys - the knowledge of how one enters Heaven just as everyone who gets saved will know

    "of the Kingdom of Heaven; what you for forbid on earth shall be forbidden in heaven, and what you allow on earth shall be allowed in heaven."
    Who is in control today - God not man. Acts we find Paul, not Peter building the early church. Galations 2 we find Paul was sent to the Gentiles and Peter to the Jews, no elevating of piwer to anyone, Acts 15 where the early leaders gathered we see Peter as just one of the leaders along with James -again no elivating Peter to a pope position

    The Question is where is the Seat of the Catholic church Built?
    Rome so what!

    Jesus Keeps his Promises, In case you didn't Know it, go out there and research for yourself where Saint Peter son of Jonah is Buried
    It proves nothing where he is buried!
    Now what is it that you find in Scripture that makes Peter a Pope?

    NOTHING

     
  • At 7:32 PM, Blogger Matthew said…

    Ron,

    I along with another posted have written a reply to your comment on my blog:

    http://acatholiclife.blogspot.com/2006/03/quotations-on-eucharist.html

     
  • At 5:05 PM, Blogger Ron Kempen said…

    For all of you die hard Catholcs that refuse to see the truth sbout your "Catholism" - I invite you to my website: www.gospel-light@sbcglobal.net

     
  • At 5:12 PM, Blogger Ron Kempen said…

    Ron Kempen said...
    For all of you die hard Catholics that refuse to see the truth sbout your "Catholicism" - I invite you to my website: www.gospel-light@sbcglobal.net

     

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